Comments on Simon Strantzas: Mainstream dream

Granted, I'm sure the method Biddles uses is bette...

2008-08-24T12:02:00.000-04:00

Granted, I'm sure the method Biddles uses is better than the average MMP (you couldn't open the latter wide enough to lay flat on a table, after all, not without throwing it out when you were done), but I'd still be interested in seeing just how long that paste will last before crumbling. Probably less that it will take the threads of a good sewn book to do the same.

QUOTE!!! That said, frankly, Biddles isn't all the...

2008-08-24T11:26:00.000-04:00

QUOTE!!! That said, frankly, Biddles isn't all the much better. The paper may be brighter, but the books still have glued binding. Granted, it's a better glue treatment, with signatures and all the rest, but glue is glue, and it's still susceptible to aged and temperature. I suspect all the Biddles book are going to start showing their age in a few years. END OF QUOTE!!!

Not true, oh Nomis-man! They use paste! And they often make it themselves. Glue uses material from animal skeletons which is harder to get these days and is insanely expensive. Plus, while actually lasting longer in theory, glue is bad with temperature and humidity fluctuation, which is why your copy of The Return of the King that you read in the bath during high school is falling apart.

Biddles, however, is crafting paste from scratch to take into account temperature fluctuation and humidity shifts, so that they will stay together when your MMP will fall apart after going in the hold of a plane where the temperature drops like a stone and the air pressure likewise.

Also, remember that each of the quires in their books are slot perforated, so that the glue truly permeates the pages' structure, meaning that — unlike stitched binding, where an entire thread can unravel — if one little bit breaks, the other eight or so areas of the quire are still held by the paste.

Plus their paper stocks are acid-free and FCC certified, so both the paper and the forests will last longer.

Now I'm not saying that a Biddles-produced book will last longer than a Smythe-sewn one, I'm just saying that it may not be as bad as you purport.

QUOTE!!! What I'm trying to say - is that if you can get a good looking book produced and marketed for £10 that gives a decent profit, why can't the £8 book I bought from Virgin at least look somewhere near as good? END OF QUOTE!!!

Simple: the one you bought in Virgin for eight quid has to have its money split in such a way that the people who edited, marketed, and published it actually get paid decently. And the adverts to market that book cost a fair bit too. Were small press to factor in things to the same degree that those responsible for your MMP did, you'd be rightfully paying £65 for the one you're selling at a tenner.

What I'm trying to say - is that if you can get a ...

2008-08-23T06:17:00.000-04:00

What I'm trying to say - is that if you can get a good looking book produced and marketed for £10 that gives a decent profit, why can't the £8 book I bought from Virgin at least look somewhere near as good?

some writers will eat that fry off the floor. the...

2008-08-23T00:36:00.000-04:00

some writers will eat that fry off the floor. they see it and don't care that it is tainted with the germs and grime from the soles of the heathens. but others, like our friendly Madman Simon, rubufed said fry.

it's true, i fucking saw him let that kid eat it, even while the simpleton watched on with his broom and grin.

"I doubt that I will ever see him/them rolling on ...

2008-08-22T19:25:00.000-04:00

"I doubt that I will ever see him/them rolling on the muddy floors of the internet "horror forums", belly aching about mainstream, fame, the lack of money and other internal gases. They are too old, too wise and to proud to daydream about world domination. This discussion is legitimate but embarrassing."

Luckily for us all, you aren't so proud to personally refrain from rolling up your sleeves to roll in the mud. Thank you for contributing to the "legitimate but embarrasing" discussion.

That's why I love the gentleman and polymath Reggi...

2008-08-22T17:12:00.000-04:00

That's why I love the gentleman and polymath Reggie Oliver. Plus Mark Valentine, Ron Weighell, Ramsey Campbell, Don Tumasonis and a couple others. I doubt that I will ever see him/them rolling on the muddy floors of the internet "horror forums", belly aching about mainstream, fame, the lack of money and other internal gases. They are too old, too wise and to proud to daydream about world domination. This discussion is legitimate but embarrassing. Sorry Gavin, sorry Laird. "Existentialist" fiction is tough.

P.S. And English is not my first language.

It's no secret that the mass market books are, by ...

2008-08-22T12:51:00.000-04:00

It's no secret that the mass market books are, by and large, not designed to last. Books are considered almost disposable. Cheap paper and shoddy workmanship. It's no wonder they've started to brown, Ally. Those binding won't stand up to re-reading either.

That said, frankly, Biddles isn't all the much better. The paper may be brighter, but the books still have glued binding. Granted, it's a better glue treatment, with signatures and all the rest, but glue is glue, and it's still susceptible to aged and temperature. I suspect all the Biddles book are going to start showing their age in a few years.

If you really want a book to last, you need to get it Smythe-sewn. Not many publisher do it that way, but those that do ... well, let's just say I have a lot of Tartarus books and Ash Tree books in my TBR pile, and I'm not worried if it don't get to them right away.

Anyway, if you were the kind of person who liked money, you'd probably want to be in the mass market -- the cheaper the book, the more often a fan will replace it. More money for you!

Before anyone says it - I know how cheap the Leisu...

2008-08-22T10:23:00.000-04:00

Before anyone says it - I know how cheap the Leisure books were to buy but what do you want to be published in, mainstream piss poor looking books or good quality? Just a thought.

My big gripe at the moment (leaving aside the actu...

2008-08-22T10:09:00.000-04:00

My big gripe at the moment (leaving aside the actual writing)is the quality of the books coming out from the mainstream. Some of the pages in the Leisure series I bought a few of and some by big publishing houses have all turned brownish. My collection came from Biddles on good quality paper, will last and looks good. I'm proud of it and no doubt when my nine year old is old enough to read it - she will take it down from the shelf and the paper will still look good - hopefully. The small press can produce quality and sometimes are not overly expensive. At this moment I'd rather have the quality of the small press than a churned out poor quality looking mainstream book.

Just expressing my opinion. "Outdated", with its i...

2008-08-19T09:50:00.000-04:00

Just expressing my opinion. "Outdated", with its implications of something whose time has passed and for which there is no longer either room or call, merely seemed to me a strange word to use apropos Reggie's writing, and I was examining this.

If given a choice between the King James Bible and "Good News for Modern Man", I'll pick the former every time; which might, perhaps, put me in a minority, but does not, I think and hope, make either the King James version, or me, "outdated".

Barbara:Ease back on the reins of that white horse...

2008-08-19T03:49:00.000-04:00

Barbara:

Ease back on the reins of that white horse you're galloping around on -- you're trampling the flower beds and frightening the children.

Interesting to see Reggie Oliver's writing singled...

2008-08-19T01:31:00.000-04:00

Interesting to see Reggie Oliver's writing singled out here, and to read Laird's comment: "Oliver's work in the tradional mode is superb. But the style is outdated. That really shouldn't be perceived as a knock on the popular audience. If Lovecraft and Blackwood and yea, Shakespeare were alive today, they'd need to freshen their approach a wee bit."

Perhaps; but would we want them to? Have the various "modern" versions of the Bible succeeded in wooing back people who were put off by the archaic language of the King James version? Yes, "modern" versions of the Bible are a bit easier to understand; but for poetry and imagery and sheer beauty they aren't a patch on the King James version.

If Reggie's style is perceived as too "outdated", then I'd suggest that's the readers' loss, not Reggie's. Personally, I enjoy reading writers who have an excellent command of the English language, who can successfully write in a variety of voices and styles, who are able to evoke a bygone time when writing of that bygone time. Heaven knows I've read enough crappy pseudo-Victorian pastiche where the writer seems to think that if his or her characters use a lot of big words, that's Victorian enough, while elsewhere they ride roughshod over Victorian conventions of grammar and usage that would have had real Victorian writers coming down with brain fever left, right, and centre. There's no "best before" date on good writing or style, and I'd argue that rather than say a given author's style is "outdated", with its unspoken implication that it's hopelessly old-fashioned and out of touch, it would be more accurate to say that it's "out of fashion". Of course, things that are out of fashion generally end up coming back into fashion at some point, to the general surprise of the masses, and the satisfaction of those who supported it all along.

Fun thread. And just to muddy the waters a bit I'...

2008-08-18T10:49:00.000-04:00

Fun thread. And just to muddy the waters a bit I'll throw in my worthless 2 cents.

Too often, I think, those of us who toil in the independent and small press scene use the term "commercial" in a pejorative sense. I've been guilty. And I'll admit to sour grapes, at times, too. Some seemingly inferior writers gain commercial and/or critical success, when I see other writers that I've championed, who deserve a wider audience and bigger paydays, go virtually unnoticed. It happens. Nothing much we can do about it. But, as Simon says, I think you have to stay true to your writing. Eventually, if the Karmic wheel turns the right way, you'll get some attention.

Me, I've stopped worrying about whether or not someone deserves the accolades they get. It's done anyway. Spilled milk and all that. I like Richard's philosophy about just doing the work and finding an audience for it.

As far as writing styles and commercial attraction, it's a sticky wicket. Is Cormac Mccarthy's The Road "commercial" fiction? It's a book that polarized some (which I happen to think is a brilliant book), but was certainly successful. There are plenty of prize-winning literary efforts that bore me to tears. Same goes with some recent popular titles, including the Joe Hill book. His collection was excellent, but I couldn't finish the novel because I'd felt I'd read it all before. But it found a wide audience, I believe.

All this to say different strokes for different folks. If Reggie Oliver were to court a wider audience, it might work. Or maybe his prose would suffer. But it still might work. As Laird points out, I doubt Reggie is actively seeking mainstream acceptance. I don't begrudge any writer who "sells out" to a wider audience.

No worries -- a man sharpens himself against anoth...

2008-08-18T10:31:00.000-04:00

No worries -- a man sharpens himself against another to paraphrase the old saw.

Too late to share. But no fear -- there's another sort of wedged under the bottom of the fridge....

Oh, if you were saying Laird what Ian says you wer...

2008-08-18T05:08:00.000-04:00

Oh, if you were saying Laird what Ian says you were saying then I have no issue with that. They probably would be writing in a more modern voice.

See? We're all friends again. Pass me over some of that 'fry.

"Yeah, I actually do think that is equal to a lack...

2008-08-18T00:03:00.000-04:00

"Yeah, I actually do think that is equal to a lack of taste on the part of the larger audience, regardless of whether someone is making an effort to appeal to them or not."

A bold indictment of...just about everyone. I'm a proud member of the hoi polloi, so I'll back away from that one.

Ian's last post pretty much sums up what I'm saying (trying to say). How the old greats did it was purely a construct of the times, not the end all be all of style.

In other news. The french fry was yummy.

I don't think Laird was knocking that style of wri...

2008-08-17T23:33:00.000-04:00

I don't think Laird was knocking that style of writing in his comment regarding Lovecraft, Blackwood, etc., just that if they were writing today they would probably need to update their styles because each one wasn’t writing in an outdated style at the time. They were writing in the language of their respective generations. Ligotti, and the others who write in a more baroque style, are not. That doesn't make it bad, nor am I dismissing it, I'm just saying…

I don't think it's an accusation, but simply a rea...

2008-08-17T23:12:00.000-04:00

I don't think it's an accusation, but simply a reality. Modern readers, those few that still read, who are steeped in the mainstream, don't have time for traditional styles of writing. It's unfortunate, but it seems to be the case. It's not a question of whether Reggie's trying to appeal to them, rather just that doing what he does he doesn't. Nor would most anyone else, I'd wager.

There's nothing wrong with a terse writing style, or any other modern writing style, but it seems to me that when you say "If Lovecraft and Blackwood and yea, Shakespeare were alive today, they'd need to freshen their approach a wee bit" you're knocking that style of writing, and implying it's somehow lesser than what's now, if only by the apparent casual dismissal of it. Of course, I may be misreading. I'm quite good at that.

But, you know, a modern audience that can't appreciate traditional forms and styles? One who can't appreciate as style that isn't really all that outdated time-wise? Yeah, I actually do think that is equal to a lack of taste on the part of the larger audience, regardless of whether someone is making an effort to appeal to them or not.

Perhaps we'll just have to disagree on that one point. [shrugs]

"Rather, that just because a style is no longer in...

2008-08-17T22:38:00.000-04:00

"Rather, that just because a style is no longer in vogue doesn't mean it's somehow inferior."

Who's talking about a terse writing style, which happens to be one of several used by good modern horror authors? What's this about inferiority? You're moving the soccer net about.

"There are plenty of people who are fully capable of reading and enjoying a style of writing employed less than a hundred years ago."

Plenty is pretty nebulous. And yeah, music goes out of style too; such is life.

You said Oliver is unwelcome in the mainstream -- which sounds like an accusation. I maintain that a lack of interest in what he's dishing doesn't equate a lack of taste on the part of the larger audience. He's making no effort to appeal to them.

Well, that's hardly fair, is it? I'm not suggestin...

2008-08-17T21:42:00.000-04:00

Well, that's hardly fair, is it? I'm not suggesting returning to an archaic form of spelling or anything. Rather, that just because a style is no longer in vogue doesn't mean it's somehow inferior. It's like saying Muddy Waters, were he starting out now, would be better off writing pop songs than Blues songs. Why? Just because blues isn't the predominate style anymore?

There are plenty of people who are fully capable of reading and enjoying a style of writing employed less than a hundred years ago. This change to a terse simply style is relatively recent, and perhaps not the Swiss army knife of writing we give it credit for. ;-)

"True, it's fallen out of favour, but why should t...

2008-08-17T21:00:00.000-04:00

"True, it's fallen out of favour, but why should that be the case?"

The dozens and dozens of people worldwide who enjoy the hobby of recreating authentic and antiquated prose methods would better answer that question. ;)

And, just to reinterate, I was complaining, in the...

2008-08-17T18:29:00.000-04:00

And, just to reinterate, I was complaining, in the initial post, that this style had fallen out of favour (hence the "grandfather" mention)

Anyway, I'm glad we're all in agreement that I'm 100% right ;-)

"Oliver's work in the tradional mode is superb. Bu...

2008-08-17T18:27:00.000-04:00

"Oliver's work in the tradional mode is superb. But the style is outdated. That really shouldn't be perceived as a knock on the popular audience. If Lovecraft and Blackwood and yea, Shakespeare were alive today, they'd need to freshen their approach a wee bit. "

I stipulate that you have nothing against Reggie's work. Just to get that off the table. That said, I reject the notion that this style needs to be "freshened". True, it's fallen out of favour, but why should that be the case?

There's a whole thread about this on the Shocklines messageboard, so no need to rehash it here.

Yeah -- I don't want to come off as knocking Ligot...

2008-08-17T17:38:00.000-04:00

Yeah -- I don't want to come off as knocking Ligotti or Oliver, or several others who cleave to the deeply traditional modes. I can only hope to write so well as guys such as Ligotti and Oliver one day.

I agree with Laird, and Simon, and Richard. I thin...

2008-08-17T17:35:00.000-04:00

I agree with Laird, and Simon, and Richard. I think we're all coming from the same place, if we're getting there via different paths.

I like Ligotti and Oliver. Like Lovecraft, they write in somewhat antiquated styles that they have made their own, certainly not for every reader, not because some readers aren't smart enough, but because their respective styles are simply outdated. Present-day readers can't be dunned for existing in the present day.

Money would be nice, but I'm more interested in people reading my work. Which, granted, is somewhat limited in the small press where the readership is quite small (hence the name). If I hope for any mainstream success it's more because I want lots of readers rather than lots of money. Although the money certainly wouldn't hurt. :)